Auto Hop Discussion

Discussion in 'Surf' started by Kaiden, Jul 4, 2017.

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Should an autohop option be added to F1, where if enabled the player cannot set seasonal times?

Poll closed Oct 18, 2017.
  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    59.1%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    40.9%
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  1. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    So there's a bit of stigma around discussing autohop on BB (herein autohop refers to holding your jump bind to automatically jump for you), where players are often derided for suggesting it, told to play on another server if they don't like it, or can be mocked for being bad surfers for liking autohop.

    Personally I feel a lot of our maps don't require a lot of bhops to complete; there's maybe a few of our harder tier maps that have a couple of bhops, but with the likes of Simpsons and Healthy gone these are pretty low. The most I see people bhopping is to gain momentum at the start of the map, which is only done to get seasonal times and not required just to complete the map.

    With that said, a lot of our competition do offer autohop as a feature you can enable or disable through F1. My suggestion is to have such a feature in our F1 tab, but if enabled, you are unable to set new seasonal, weekly, monthly, all time best times, etc, until you disable it again.

    So the idea is players who must have an auto-hop option before they'll even consider playing on a server will be happy they can enable it, but if they want to set seasonal times (which not everyone does of course) then they'd need to disable it again. Players would be advised of this upon enabling/disabling the feature.

    My feeling is you guys will generally be fine with this, for our serious surfers who want to set seasonal times, they wouldn't enable this feature. They also wouldn't have their times threatened as autohop enabled users wouldn't be able to set times. For those who just want autohop because perhaps they need it to beat maps, or they're not open to the idea of not having it, it fills a gap where otherwise they'd look for another server.

    To summarize:
    • Autohop would be a feature you can tick in F1, it will be unticked by default.
    • If you tick it, you'll receive a prompt advising this will enable autohop, but you won't be able to set seasonal times and monthly/weekly/etc times until it's disabled.
    • The idea is to allow more casual players who refuse to play surf without autohop to play on our servers.
    • There would be no indication they have autohop enabled except they couldn't set times.
    • This is intended for the Easy server.
    Please vote honestly about your thoughts on this and add to the discussion, as the end result could end up with the feature being implemented, and I'd want to hear both sides before that happened.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  2. NeverReady

    NeverReady [BB] Admin Admin

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    I personally wouldn't like it, but it would possibly gain more players, really the casual players who immediately hop off the server after learning we don't have auto-hop. It's called SKILL surf for a reason, but I think since it wouldn't count towards times, it would be fine and dandy. But would it be possible to still have it count as their PB? What if we get new people from this who ONLY use auto-hop and want to improve that way, without caring about leaderboards? I think they should have the ability to atleast keep track of their time although it doesn't count to the boards.
     
  3. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    The idea would be to track the PB in the corner still as it's separate from the weekly/seasonal/etc times so that should be fine.
     
  4. Teddi

    Teddi Well-Known Member Bear

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    My concern with adding a feature like this is the lengths player will go to have it normalised in other areas of play. At first it'll be a case of general acceptance, then 'why not during timed runs' and so on. I'd even go as far to say that if we were to allow for PBS with ahop, they'd be given their own tracking system internally.

    For me, autohop is like a tool assisted run (TAR) which isn't a bad thing. In speed runs of games they can be fun - but they're given their own exclusive category and don't impact standard records as a whole.
    If it wasn't for risk of fragmenting the community, i would argue that a separate server would be better as opposed to a toggle.

    I'm not really happy with the idea; and I would beg the question of do we really want players that want nothing but a soft-cheat? To clarify, I'm not stating that ahop in itself is cheating as it arguably could lead to more reliably times; but 90% of the player base won't use it for that reason.
     
  5. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    Well if we draw the line that it won't ever have further integration outside of what's suggested in the OP then I don't see that being an issue tbh.

    While we're aware you're not a fan of autohop, there's a % of the playerbase that will actively avoid our server because it doesn't have autohop, especially at our peak in the summer. It's a chance to capture new players who could remain with us, and it's a shame they miss out on the great features we offer due to lacking a very common feature.

    I feel if a % of players are looking for an easier experience for whatever reason then we should be able to provide it; as it has no impact on our times I don't really see the issue. If we don't provide it, then they leave and never come back, which is a shame. It'd be interesting to see figures for the amount who leave shortly after joining due to it. As we verbally get a few complaints from players who go "omg no autohop" most days, then get chastised and leave, I expect the actual number is probably a fair bit higher.

    The general consensus is "Teddi doesn't like autohop so there's no autohop" from anyone asking why there's actually no autohop. I agree it shouldn't affect times, but having them track their PB I don't see an issue with as it's not shared (and even if it is on the future website, you could just add (AH) to the time if it was achieved with autohop).
     
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  6. Jr6150

    Jr6150 [BB] Admin Admin

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    I personally don't really like the idea of autohop in general and agree with Teddi's perspective on the whole idea. However, I do think that the lack of autohop drives people away, and causes a general stigma around BB for some people.The proposed idea is a great compromise for both sides of the fence, so as long as times stay separated for seasonal and such, I think it's definitely something to consider adding.
     
  7. Teddi

    Teddi Well-Known Member Bear

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    Does it really generate a stigma though? I'd also question if those are the sort of players we're after. On one hand opening up viable avenues and introducing players should take direct precedent - but what I don't want to do is ultimately have a bunch of people on the server going 'lel look at me going 6000 units per hour i'm so skilled lelelel' because inevitably; this will happen.

    If I had to add an ahop system, it'd be zone based - ie done in areas where bhopping is actually required; else it'll just end up horribly abuse.
     
  8. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    I see it pretty often where players wanting auto-hop are told to learn to surf, or play somewhere else etc, so it's natural they move on pretty quick to somewhere else.

    I can't imagine auto hop allows you to gain more speed than scroll jumping at the start of the spawn and then starting the run, it's just easier. If you want a zone based system then fair enough, although sounds like more work. Although sounds complicated explaining to players "no there's no autohop, but there is sometimes, on certain stages in certain area".
     
  9. Bundt

    Bundt DJ Pauly D

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    Ok heres my take since I feel I have the most relevant perspective here being the longest active surfer in our community (probably) THIS IS ALSO A RELEVANT HISTORY LESSON TO ALL SURFERS

    Preface: In counter strike 1.6 (and versions before) bunnyhopping was found out and abused by competitive players playing the vanilla shooting gamemodes to quickly go around maps, be hard to hit, and generally look cool, one of many abuses you can do in the engine and on certain maps you could also hold a or d on slanted walls and surf them to keep momentum and move faster than normal. These tricks eventually gained so much interest that specific maps were made whose goal in mind was not to play counter strike for shooting, but for bunnyhopping, longjumping, climbing, and yes, surfing, all using the strafing mechanics in the engine at the core of the gamemodes, requiring skill to master and complete.

    CSS: When counter strike source released players noticed that all of these old engine abuses were still present in the new game and started making css maps focusing on these specific mechanics. Unfortunately for the competitive counter strike scene, the updated engine had made it easier to do these strafing mechanics, but drastically changed the shooting aspect of the game causing many pro shooters to stick to their past on 1.6 which left the source community primarily about custom gamemodes, a big chunk were focused on these strafing mechanics like bunnyhop servers, and "surf" servers. Back in css the surf servers did not differentiate between which type of surf maps they had, most of them were what we consider "arena surf" maps, where the primary objective is to kill players and using surfing as a vehicle to do so. These maps generally had jails that bad surfers would go to if they failed the surfing, leaving them generally powerless running around like chickens with their heads off waiting for the players that successfully complete the map to kill them as they received guns as rewards. There were a few of these maps that even had bunnyhopping sections such as surf_skyworld where telehopping made you insanely fast and hard to kill, as well as one of our maps that we currently have on rotation, ny_platinum, which features a bunnyhop/telehop on the 4th stage. Our easy server still uses many of these surf maps designed and meant to be played on counter strike source with jails and guns and knives, (we just take those away teehee) some players just enjoyed the challenging surfing part of the gamemode rather than the shooting part. This was the birth of skill surf, players would join a server to just ride the ramps, no shooting, no jails, just ramps (notice I didn't say just surf).

    Skill: As map makers decided to focus on just the skill element that people started to enjoy about these gamemodes, they started to blend things together, bunnyhop servers had surf sections and longjump sections, and surfing which generally just had surfing and shooting, now started to blend surfing and bunnyhopping, the point of blending providing extra difficulty. Some map creators liked this blend and created maps with specific bhop sections like surf_fruits, one of the oldest skill surf maps i can remember, having to bunnyhop the lime on the third stage to proceed. As people bond over shared struggle, skill surf communities started to form such as KSF, popularizing the time trial aspect of skill surf, and in time the skill of players increased, increasing a demand for harder maps like those found on our hard skill surf server.

    CSGO: Time passes, a new game is created by valve called counter strike global offensive is made, the timeframe very close to the birth of the first iterations of our [BB] surf server. The woes of the competitive counter strike shooter player were solved and the competitive community was revitalized to play this game, drawing insane numbers to their esports events that exponentially increased the amount of counter strike players. With this second wave of counter strike players, not all are as good as the pros unfortunately, and the more casual player wanted to skill play counter strike and show off their $90 knife skin, but didn't want to get fragged every five seconds by those with 10 years of counter strike experience under their belt. This spawned another desire for alternative gamemodes, such as surf and with the help of meme magic like leafy and some streamers like summit1g who was an ex counter strike pro that showcased surfing on stream every now and then, surfing had a rebirth on csgo. Simply porting css maps to the new game and making the same type of servers that had success years ago was a formula for success with the newer generation.

    Autohop: This is the section where I might be speculating a little bit as I have never played a csgo surfing server before, but what I think happened is that in the process of setting up these new surf servers for csgo, they encountered blended surf maps with bhopping sections, causing frustration to the newer surfers that did not know what bunnyhopping was and looked for a solution. Autohop was born, simply holding down space can get you past those pesky bhop sections of the map, as well as getting absurd starting prehop speeds to help get past far jumps by holding space and circling spawn. Now, my theory is that the second wave surfers were less interested in failing maps over and over again and more interested in looking cool with their knife skin and surfing fast with their bros, autohop became the norm, solving the problem of bhop sections on maps, and making most maps easier with increased prehop speeds. The part of my theory that is certainly true, is that autohop did in fact become the norm, and soon enough every single csgo server had autohop as the default (and bhop servers too for some reason)

    Gmod: [BB] surf was one of the first gmod surf servers ever with it's first iterations around 2012, and at this time autohop was not even a thought or discussion as it was not the norm anywhere, quite identical to css. As time went by and we dabbled around with how we wanted the server to play out we essentially just wanted an identical css skill surf server ported onto gmod as a skill surf gamemode. When we got our time trial system up and running the server started to gain popularity as those who were familiar with similar css servers could now play on gmod and the gmod surf community started to grow. As players started to notice that you could now skill surf on gmod, the servers gained attraction from the second wave surfers on csgo who were used to the familiar map names from css that were ported to csgo, but are not used to the manual bunnyhopping that those who have been through the older stages of counter strike strafing gamemodes have known.
     
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  10. Bundt

    Bundt DJ Pauly D

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    The Debate: The reason why I mentioned all of the previous history was to demonstrate that all strafing gamemodes have always been hand-in-hand, surfing and bunnyhopping have always been together and while you can have maps or servers with exclusivity if you were interested in those type of gamemodes back in the day you would know how to do both, so the idea of having autohop generally appears to be cheating/unfair to those who were fond of those gamemodes back in the day as you are automating speed generation that you did not earn by manually bhopping. The vast majority of maps were made with the intention that you beat them without autohop as there simply was not such a thing available when the maps were created, giving homage to how the maps were designed and meant to be played. The whole reason why it is called skill surf is that it involves skill strafing movements, bunnyhopping being one of them. The newer surfing audience primarily plays on csgo with autohop enabled by default, so the idea of having to bind jump to scrollwheel seems like too much effort and having to scroll on beat every time your character hits the ground just seems hard and frustrating for something that they simply just had to hold down a button for. To the csgo surf audience, not having autohop (which they often just call bhop because they don't even know about manual bhopping) combined with no knife skins just makes gmod surf servers without autohop feel like cheap knockoffs.

    Logistics: I do believe we can capture both audiences on our surf server, at the moment we have not caved in to the autohop crowd as some servers have after years of no autohop, catering to the skill surf purists that want skill surf to be as it was intended to be played back in the day, however, the second wave surfers are only continuing to grow as kids are obviously not playing css as much as they are playing csgo and will only get more used to surfing with autohop than without. I even had a 15 minute debate with some csgo player that thought autohop surfing and autohop bhopping was more skill intensive than manually surfing and manually bhopping, it clearly is not, but it is a sign that manually bhopping is only becoming more and more forgotten. Our server has seen wild success even with newer surfing audiences without having autohop as an option, but I don't believe we should just shut out those who don't want to manually bhop and refuse to rebind jump (although it should be pushed to learn). I do believe we have lost potentially thousands of players from becoming regulars on our server due to our no autohop and rough explanations to why we don't have it, regardless of the flawed logic behind why it should be a thing, it is very disheartening to see people insta-dc when they realize that they have to manually bhop regardless of even if the map has a bhop section. If we are labeling our server as "easy maps" people take that as "easy skill" as well, even if the gamemode is called skill surf. I don't like the fact that we have zero alternatives for those who can't beat the stage which they may have been used to autohopping to complete in the past besides git gud. I don't like the fact that we have to remove decent quality maps such as surf_healthy because there are too many bhops in it. I believe if we are labeling ourselves as an easy server, there should be an alternative such as autohopping to compensate those who want to just beat the map and not hit the same ramp 50 times and fail and ragequit. I get it, thats the whole point of skill surf, you try, you fail, you fail a lot, you finally learn, I know, I've been doing it longer than most, but from a community perspective, we should in theory be able to teach somebody that has not surfed once in their life to be able to start beating maps and eventually progress to the hard server all in-house. I don't believe people that don't like the idea of no autohop aren't willing to learn, or aren't the kind of people we want in our community, I just think they in general lack surfing skill and don't understand how to rebind their jump or why it's important to do so and why it's fun to manually do it, it's simply what they started their muscle memory with, it's whats comfortable. My solution is that we should have autohop available in the options off by default and when it is active all timetrials are invalid with no global chat message stating their time and cube gains are either reduced significantly or not attainable while autohop mode is on. I do not think the autohop players will foster a sense of skill/elitism when they can't even gain access to the time trials or gain cubes rather after a while of completing maps and not gaining cubes and looking around seeing everybody else with cool stuff and times would then be open minded to learn how to manually bhop and become community members within [BB] surfing the way it was meant to be played(TM). Lets not let our arrogance and elitism of our previous knowledge of bhopping shut out the ever growing csgo surfing crowd who are only growing in numbers for better or for worse.
     
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  11. Squeaks

    Squeaks Member

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    I personally don't think it should have autohop, if they are not willing to learn how to scroll hop (Extremely simple and easy to do), they should try another surf server before they play 'SKILL SURF'. That is just my opinion though, I am not too sure about the idea with the 'Records can't be set' though, I think if you do that people will ask why they can't get records and then there well be a giant complaint riot and its not something I think anybody wants to deal with. I think they should just learn to scroll hop or not complain.

    Think about it, if you give them the ability they are going to get salty that they can't set any records only PBs. Most of the maps barely even need you to BHOP and the ones that do only have like 1 or 2 stages that require 1-2 simple jumps! Again its only an opinion, you can disagree or agree you have no forced choice.
     
  12. Teddi

    Teddi Well-Known Member Bear

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    just as an informational thing, it allows you to gain huge speed increases due to the fact the server is enforcing the jump, whereas with say a scroll wheel bind the client is saying "I'd like to jump please" and the lag between that question and response. There's also the fact many ahop systems also give you a little velocity to make it easier yet.
     
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  13. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    Yeah that's fair enough, reading through Bundt's post I understand it can get you some decent speed at spawn, but again if they're not setting times they could have 10k speed but I don't see the relevance to the competitive side of the server. I'd think of enabling auto-hop as almost entering an "easy mode" or "practice mode" to help those reliant on auto-hop segregate into the server before eventually disabling it so they can earn full cubes and set times.

    Good post by Bundt that pretty much sums it up, a few people have suggested alongside no times being recorded they also get reduced cubes which is a good idea. I don't feel it'll create a community of "omg look at our unrecorded speeds" when they're not saving times and actually earning less currency than regular players.

    We want to avoid telling players "You shouldn't be playing here" though, it's an easy server with easy gravity and easy maps, if we're saying "you're not good enough to play here" it reflects badly on us. What we should be saying is "There's an option in F1 you can tick to enable auto-hop, but it has some catches, give it a try and see how you find it".
     
  14. Squeaks

    Squeaks Member

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    Well I didn't mean it exactly like that but I suppose that is what it looked like. What if you just have a practice mode and it automatically has autohop enabled instead of having the option to have it? I think that seems better don't you think?
     
  15. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    They sort of achieve the same thing but yeah agreed that could be an idea, although I expect these players will go looking in F1 for auto-hop and might not like it much when they have to tick a box called "Practice Mode" to get auto-hop enabled.

    The main thing is finding a balance between welcoming auto-hop players but also not advertising our server as auto-hop, it should be there to help players who are reliant on it adjust to our maps, server settings etc and then they disable it when ready so they can get full benefits i.e. max cubes.
     
  16. Malachi

    Malachi Member MVP

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    To be honest, seeing how the community has been built to autohop kinda ruins the fun in surfing and bunny hopping in general. Before it use to take skill and you needed to know what you were doing and practice it, after autohop was added it seemed like that feature disappeared combined with the short attention span of some people and others getting easily angered after not knowing how to surf, it makes it seem as if surfing is going to fade away. I am not saying that it is going to fade any time soon but autohop seems to make it seem as if there is no actual SKILL used or needed to surf or bunny hop, but i do agree on the facts that it has brought in a lot of new people to begin surfing and bunny hopping to eventual get better (if they actually commit to practicing and taking time to complete maps and get better). A lot of people I see nowadays don't realize this and think if they are not pros right away they shouldn't be attempting whatever they are doing, which leads to people giving up and not even attempting to progress which saddens me. But, to help the server progress and bring more attention you need to take turns towards how the community needs help and "needs" autohop to complete maps and hopefully learn how to surf and bunny hop WITHOUT autohop. And the only way to see this happen is if the server has autohop, and I love the idea Kaiden put out there, saying "The idea would be to track the PB in the corner still as it's separate from the weekly/seasonal/etc times". This would totally help out newer surfers by showing them that they are able to surf but need to practice to actually get better, but also maintain the use of skill as well as the competitive mindset between more skilled surfers. I understand the has been a long time issue and do agree that we should add autohop to help out newer surfers begin and maybe expand into the world of surfing.
     
  17. Daddy

    Daddy [BB] Sub Admin Sub Admin

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    Let it be said I prefer scroll-hop; however, autohop is in no way detrimental to a servers integrity among the skilled surfing community and it certainly would not be harmful in the specific suggestion Kaiden has presented. The issue at hand is largely BB's start zones that have no preference on the speed you leave with or velocity trigger to say when you are going too fast to be starting the map. If BB added autohop and allowed leaderboard times to be affected by players using it we would see a dramatic improvement to the weekly, monthly, and all time boards simply due to the start zones lack of speed triggers. That being said, this isn't the idea Kaiden has presented. BB Surf has built itself on the fundamental belief that autohop is a non-skilled crutch and I don't think anyone would vote yes to letting autohop affect times, but if autohop could be toggled through the settings menu in F1 and enabling this feature prevented you from scoring leaderboard times? That non-skilled crutch could extremely benefit beginning surfers. Let's say I'm a new surfer and I'm looking for the right community to start wasting my time surfing when I find BB. If I'm not 12 and have some sense of taste, I'll notice all the wonderful things the server has to offer! But even then, with every other server offering autohop it'd be hard not to notice that one feature lacking which to many newer surfers is a vital feature. You see, BB cannot cradle and nurture beginner surfers into becoming better in the same sense other servers can. Our server is more likely to pull in pseudo-skilled to more experienced surfers merely because we require you to know a little more about the game. I know Teddi said here,
    Those "sort of players" are new to surf and in some cases new to gmod, which, if growing the server is the prime directive, are indeed the players you want. They don't know how to scroll-hop and learning will take time whereas they could just move to another server and freely autohop all they want there. Also, I don't know how often you play on autohop surf servers, but it is rare to have players boasting about how fast they can go at any point in the map, because it just isn't impressive and that concept is apparent even to people just starting out. There is no argument here in my eyes. We either continue on without autohop and miss out on the largest percentile of players surfing i.e. beginners, or we add a toggleable autohop option that only tracks pbs, offers less cubes for completions, and ultimately grows the community for the better. Nobody wants for BB to become just another autohop surfing server, we pride ourselves on skilled-surf with skilled-hops if any hops, but our server lacks something beginners want that our competition already offers. Let's take a step forward, not only as a server, but as a community. If even to see what happens. I'm with Kaiden.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  18. zanzibar

    zanzibar New Member

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    I personally don't think autohop should be added (even tho i hate scroll hop). However, the idea that skill surf or bhop and autohop are mutually exclusive is simply bullshit and any good surfer/bhopper will tell you that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  19. Teddi

    Teddi Well-Known Member Bear

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    So, the general feedback I'm seeing above is generally that autohop should be added as a toggle (which is fair enough). My concern though is that autohop does not actually aid the player in a beneficial way when it comes to learning. They'll bounce around to get speed; then fire off onto the ramp and get frustrated when it doesn't work on every stage (especially later ones). How do we actually aid the player in this case; instead of just letting them bounce around because autohop will not magically give them a deeper understanding of how Surf works. In this regard; it's a crutch (and a poor one at that).
     
  20. Kaiden

    Kaiden Administrator Community Manager

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    A player wants autohop for whatever reason, the leading theory being because they've probably come from CS:GO and it's all they know (or the majority of gmod servers now). Players just want what they know, the main issue is those just leaving as soon as they see it's not an option. If they enable it, get used to our server, get chatting to players, then they might stick around (as many have), and over time disable autohop themselves so they can compete in seasonal times and get 100% cubes. I think when it's just from 0 to 100 in terms of going from autohop to no autohop it's too much of a shock, if we can add this sort of buffer I feel it'll help.

    We won't actively advertise the feature, it'll be tucked away in F1. If a players asks in chat we'll advise them, but it's not like it'd become the new norm what with the limitations in place.
     
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